I was doing my part to make Slashdot a better place, metamoderating away, when I came to a comment on Pascal's Wager: an argument for believing in God, basically. Well, in reading the context of the comment, I came to a reply by Dunbar the Inept that echoed my thoughts on belief.
My religious experiences didn't touch on this wager, or any other argument for believing or not. It's as if it was assumed that I believed because I was in Sunday school, because I was confirmed (O.K., maybe there was an argument for the assumption in that case) and because I read some of the Bible, when, in fact, I was conflicted.
And these experiences aren't limited to my United Church of Christ days: as I briefly discussed last month, I quickly became discouraged as I read the Qur'an, with its strong language against anyone who doesn't hold belief in their heart. What's amusing is that, were I able to flick belief on like a switch, I would be insane (as Dunbar pointed out).
9 comments:
First, thanks for your comments, Mitch. I can use all the help I can get in thinking this through.
Second, personally, I distinguish between ethics and religion. I agree that a person can, and should, alter their perception of right and wrong based on their experiences, and I also agree that what I remember of the ethics professed by Jesus Christ is beautiful; certainly something to aspire to follow.
What I have difficulty with is connecting my "Love thy neighbour as thyself" philosophy to a religion. I have some serious doubts about the version history, to use your phrase, of Christianity. I mentioned what I found to the prescriptive nature of Islam. However, even the scientist in me has doubts about the theory of evolution.
So where does that leave me? Trying to be thoughtful and tolerant in everything I do, without a religion.
Speaking to your comments in order, I agree that much of a religion is setting down and propagating a moral standard. However, I would argue that you are oversimplifying "the delivery system" (i.e., as I see, the means of propagating your standard) when you compare religion with industry standards.
No religion that I've come in contact with is simply a code of ethics that stands on its own merit (like an industry standard). Always there is the history, the emphasis on how little we know, often driven home by an omnipresent being, who, by definition, knows more than any of us could ever know. All this is to say that part of "the delivery system" is that which demonstrates its legitimacy. (No industry standard worth its salt would legitimize itself in this manner. The realities of business may keep an inappropriate standard at the top - I'm thinking of the one that's getting this message to the world as a great example - but no one would argue that it's the best because of that ranking, or its history, or because von Neumann blessed it... O.K., I'm overboard now, but you know what I mean.)
I am open to the merits of living a humble life; it's something I aspire to. It is logical: our lives are complicated enough without adding to the noise. Could we hear and heed the voice of our code with a schedule of 23 press conferences per week? Sure. But it would be that much more difficult. What I don't need is to start from the position of feeling that I'm not worthy of spiritual peace (if I can capture the idea of being "saved" so) to see the value in the code.
It is the separating of what Jesus did and said from the reasons for his being among us and the reasons for what happened to him - even from the idea that something greater than us conceived of what he taught us - that I am referring to when I speak of separating ethics from religion.
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So, why this quandary then, right? What drives my search? Well, you were exactly right in saying that I seek common ground with my community, that I want to share the pleasure I get from living by my code with like-minded individuals, thereby increasing that pleasure. I seek a cure for what I've come to call my anomie (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie). And maybe you're right: maybe I will have to set down my own code, although I suspect that studying some of the Eastern codes (e.g., Yoga beyond Hatha Yoga) will prove fruitful.
I'm driven by the idea that I've reached a plateau in my life, and, while it's higher than the one I was living on five years ago, there are many, many more above me, beyond what I see as a ceiling of clouds. I also believe that it requires great discipline to reach these higher plateaus. At times in my life I have clearly seen them, only to have them fade in the noise of life. (This is *the* major source of depression in my life, incidentally.) That's why warrior codes like the Bushido, with their constant discipline, have always appealed to me.
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I'm rereading Part Deux, and realizing that, yes, it's the human justifications and legitimizing that muddy the waters, in my mind. It wouldn't bother me in the least to learn that Jesus brought a cartload of wine to that feast, people got tellin' stories, and before they knew it, someone actually recorded one of those tall tales as fact. An eye for an eye is a terrible idea on my good days. It's only the beginning when I'm low.
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I am also open to the merits of a spirit journey. The Native American idea of finding the animal spirit that will guide you appeals to me, but any journey that quiets your mind would invariably bring revelations, as I see it. Again, it's very logical.
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I don't think I've heard anyone express that position on evolution. A marriage of theories, if you will. I'm used to adversarial positions like those in a series of lectures I attended in university entitled Created Or Evolved. I should pull out those old tapes, come to think of it.
Formatting issue with the previous comment... This system doesn't deal well with markup...
Finally getting around to commenting on the example Mitch posted...
"You are being saved from the long-term consequences of your sins includ[ing] self-consuming guilt..."
Now that's something a code of ethics cannot do; not on its own. Keeping you from further sinning or from becoming an outcast (as much as possible, of course) are still realistic goals of adopting a code. However, I can envision a life of suffering from guilt no matter what code I chose to follow; what's done is done, if you will, unless...
‘[W]e are not worthy to be granted salvation from the sins we commit. God none the less offers us a teacher and a teaching through which we can bring ourselves be worthy. This is God’s grace and... is summarized as "forgiveness"’
But, again, to be forgiven, you must *believe* in God (not just want to), and his grace. Even if I believe, as you said, "that [my] lot and that of others will be improved by doing as [Jesus did]" - if I accept the code, in other words - my past will still haunt me.
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"Aren’t you questioning that source of legitimacy the church uses to project itself?"
Yes. Absolutely.
"The history, the stories, the language used; these make for a difficult journey to faith, especially for someone who has not been raised from childhood to speak in those terms..."
And, see, that's where I felt like I failed; failed my parents, the United Church, myself... I was never quite sure who the feeling was directed at. I'd been confirmed, after all. That was "speak now, or forever hold your peace" moment, so to speak. Did I fail to focus in Sunday school? Should I have read both Testaments *before* being confirmed?
I've come to understand that questioning the history is healthy, but... Well, it leaves you with lots of questions. :-)
On the 23 press conferences, I realize now that it was an ambiguous - and inaccurate, in retrospect - reference to a less-than-humble lifestyle. There have been many famous people who lived humbly, so that reference to a life of making time for many people, being in the news regularly, etc. really doesn't capture my point. Your thoughts on prayer were interesting nonetheless, though.
"If you look to the east I believe you’ll find Yoga to be more of a religion..."
Yes, I got that impression, but even the Hatha Yoga writings I've read speak to me. For example, from the first chapter of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika:
"17. The ten rules of conduct are: ahimsâ (non-injuring), truth, non-stealing, continence, forgiveness, endurance, compassion, meekness, sparing diet, and cleanliness."
Well, everything except that refraining from sexual intercourse part. ;-)
"We’ve kept the same religious texts for over 2000 years. Are you in the least surprised to find belief difficult?"
That's a good point.
Oh, I forgot to mention this relevant thought from a Salvation Army officer's blog:
"I wonder what [Jesus] would write [in] his blog? What would his rants consist of? I wonder what he would call his blog? youmissedthepoint.blogspot.com."
http://urbanarmy.blogspot.com/2004/07/what-would-jesus-call-his-blog.html
An aside on my comment that "[t]his system doesn't deal well with markup..."
I stumbed upon a good reason for not marking up comments:
"[It's] comment spam unfriendly. URLs or HTML code posted in the comments will not be displayed as hyperlinks and search engines will therefore not count them as referrers."
http://www.corti.com/weblogsascha/FormatPage.aspx?path=SiteConfig/disclaimer.format.html
I didn't know about this scheme for boosting a site's rank.
Much earlier: "[W]e are consumed by guilt," but, by acknowledging that (more recently) "[w]e are born limited," we can be saved. I like that. I've mentioned how I aspire to the humble life, and being mindful of everyone's limitation is certainly in line with it; keeping my feet on the ground, as it were.
"Have faith... that all is as it should be..."
This is our first reference to faith that I am comfortable with. To do otherwise is to waste energy and life on what has brought me to this point, keeping me from "mov[ing] on to the next [experience]," as you say. Now acknowledging the wisdom of these words, and acting on them is separated by discipline, as I see it. That is, whenever I wander from the path (e.g., when I lament missed opportunities), it is a failure of my discipline. Having a code to come back to - a map and flashlight to help me get back on the path, maybe? - may be what I'm lacking... May, in fact, be more significant to my search for a code than the need for a community that I mentioned earlier. That is, more than anything, I need help to keep moving on to the next experience.
"Sexual intercourse is seen as a distraction..."
One of many. It's so hard to stay focused... true... especially in this part of the world, I believe. Advertising is all about distracting you to another's advantage. I employed extreme measures last year in an attempt to stay focused on something I felt I had to do: I handwrote a note that began "I will remember or I will die..." and made it my desktop background so that I'd see it every day. Eventually I came to realize that: 1) it was unhealthy, and, 2) more importantly, that this move that I wanted to remember and always be working towards was really me wanting to run away from my problems, when all it would do is give them a new setting.
"I was disappointed to find that [youmissedthepoint] wasn't... real..."
No, no, Mitch. It's an opportunity, don't you see? Register it today and continue this thread. Seriously.
I'm happy to say that Mitch has done just that! To be continued at http://youmissedthepoint.blogspot.com.
just caught up with your comment on URBANarmy. I'm glad someone took up the youmissedthepoint.blogspot idea. My finger was poised to register - but then I stopped - I waste enought time with URBANarmy!!
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